Hello and welcome everyone back to another episode of the Publisher Lab
My name is Manny Ramos and I'm joined here today by the famous Terence Timmons and John Cole
How's it going? Fellas? Hey, hey, Manny, good to have you guys back
Uh We got a bunch of great stories here on the docket today. So let's just jump right into it
Uh The first one is from the social media news where we're seeing a lot of Americans flocking to tiktok for their news
Uh We're seeing a major shift in how Americans consume news. Since 2020 tiktok has seen news consumption nearly double reflecting a broader
trend towards digital channels. Today, 58% of Americans prefer digital news over traditional TV
radio or print. Notably, half of the population now gets news from social media platforms like tiktok
Instagram and even linkedin. This trend is most pronounced among adults under 30 with a staggering 255% increase in tiktok
news consumption. Interestingly, news platforms, preferences vary by gender with women favoring next door
Facebook, Instagram and tiktok, while men lean towards reddit X and youtube and as social media evolves users are increasingly turning
to search engines and news aggregation apps, prompting platforms like Google to prioritize authoritative and trustworthy content
So first question for you guys is, what platform do you guys typically go to for news
I'll, I guess I'll give things away here. Um So as a young millennial
my go to apps or platforms for news right now, number one is youtube uh big youtuber
Uh number, I guess two would be um like Reddit or Google searching
So Google News, but I usually have preferences on which links to click
Um There are some bias in there and then number three would probably be um X so I guess I'm in line exactly with what
the data show. So do you use Tik Tok? Do you use Tik Tok Tok Tok? No
it's funny because II I was talking to one of the guys in the office yesterday and he was like
oh yeah, I use Tik Tok for everything now. I was like, really? And uh I've always just thought I don't really want the Chinese
government spying on me, so I don't really fancy it. Um But I think it's surprising
I mean, well, maybe it's surprising, maybe it's not. But tiktok, the reason that they become so popular is that really got the algorithms down
It's the engagement is really dialed in on tiktok. And that's part of the reason why I don't use it because I think it's all
too engaging too much attention is gonna be pulled into it and I want some control over it
So maybe I'm a little bit, I guess, conservative in that viewpoint in trying to control it
I was getting, I was getting dropped off at the airport to come over here and the guy was waiting outside
just sat there scrolling and I said, oh, what are you looking at? He's like, oh Tik Tok and he
he's kind of like my age but not old guy just sort of drives because he likes it
And I was, I was kind of surprised but he said, yeah
I, um my daughter got me into it and I think that, that intergenerational move is happening through kids and
you know, if you show somebody something that's like, oh, I'm not going to check that out myself. Um
so I guess John at your age, what would be like your preferred medium for music
I, I'm, yeah, not typical. Probably. I, I'm once a week, I actually buy a newspaper
I get the FT weekend, which I, I think it is really good quality journalism
I really like it. Um, during the week I look at the BBC news app and I use X Got You
So it's still, that's a mobile device with a couple of apps but then you still have an og source that you like to
I do come to every week. I do, I think, I think it's because
and it's not every week, but I would say most weeks. And I think it's because when I sit down
I like to really absorb, particularly the financial stuff and, and the ft they
they cover everything but I think I absorb better when I'm just
you know, sometimes I go to the pub and have a beer and I just sit and read and it
you know, it's kind of old fashioned but it's a bit of me time and it's personal space and it's sort of like it
But I think, I mean, just look at the, look at print sales worldwide
I mean, it's, it's been on the decline so long and then I guess just a little point on this data we see here
which is digital devices are preferred. We see the same thing with website traffic where the share of mobile to desktop has only been increasing
year over year, more towards mobile. I think right now it's like 66% mobile
Um just generally what we see in the data and also from trends
everyone wants a mobile phone. So it makes 100% sense why you'll see that trend
And my viewpoint on the whole, you know, which news platform does a user use is these are just going to use whatever gives
them the best answer. So whether that be, you know, via tiktok or maybe a youtube and followers they have there or maybe seeing people
on, on X, they're just going to go to whatever place gives them that best answer
Usually it could be Google search whatever it is. So it's going to kind of break things up a bit just online
find their best sources and people going to spit into those pockets. Yeah
I think it's the, it's, again, it's this Google search satisfaction. And Google said that's probably the number one ranking algorithm of all
time is, did they get what they wanted when they looked for it
And they arrived somewhere? And I think any good algorithm tiktok included will be reinforcing what they want
which is more engagement. So they are, they are time there. They're sort of time wormholes that you can get into
I think that's one of the things that I find, of course, when I feel like I've just wasted
you know, 45 minutes just, just with chewing. Yeah, like I, I don't feel great
Um But I do like to keep up with things so I don't, maybe I'll try it
Probably not. Um But yeah, I would say I'm not typical but I these platforms
we kind of know that they are going to um I mean that they're just going to get bigger
You also bring up an interesting point, which is that contrast between like dune scrolling and just kind of mindlessly going through content versus having
an attention and drilling down and finding that specific information. And I feel like those are two use cases that are seen here
So the individual preferences are probably based off the preferences. So for me
if I'm doing scrolling Instagram, tiktok 100% sense, but something specific, I want more of like a research platform like a Google or some other
uh like database. So I can find specific information, maybe try GP T because it can generalize really well too
But I think the, the, the personal skill of finding things out
which we've all, I've learned that you've grown up with um as GP T and other large language models will serve things up
to us. That skill may diminish over time because the curiosity that we all have it
she's like, is that real? Like, let's go and find something else. You balance it up
If you're given an answer from an answer engine, that's a, that's a very different experience
It just here you go. You realize I got my phone. No
I, I definitely agree with you guys. Um in the sense of uh with
with so many people going to digital apps now for their news
I think it's just an ease of use thing. Like I couldn't tell you the last time I went out to buy a newspaper and
my dad was someone who would get the newspaper every week as well and slowly but surely he's even starting to switch over to just
using, you know, social media, which, you know, seeing it in my parents is definitely like different than seeing it in someone who's younger than
me. You know, you kind of expect it with the younger audience, but when you're seeing it with the older audience
you could tell that this is definitely going to be something that's gonna stick. Um And we're
we're also like wondering if with all this consumption of digital news
is it something where eventually the A I is gonna leave us or it's gonna be something where people are then gonna be manipulating the
news using A I, which is something that youtube is kind of addressing with their latest new policy
Um They have a new policy for A I generated content. Uh Here's what creators need to know if your content includes A I generated
alterations or synthetic media. Like deep fakes, you must inform your viewers mandatory labels and disclosures are now required in your video descriptions
especially for sensitive subjects. If you fail to comply, you could face serious consequences including video removal
account suspension or being kicked out of you. Uh The youtube partner program for viewers
there's more control in their hands. You can request the removal of A I generated content that someone's face or voice with uh that uses
someone's face or voice without consent. And for the music community A I
music imitating an artist's voice can be taken down though factors like parody in public interest will be considered
which is interesting to think about because uh I feel like parody is very subjective
right? Like if you, if you have like a Drake song, right? And the entire song sounds legit
But at the very end, they make a joke. Is it a parody? Like where
where are we going to draw the line with that? But what's your guys' take that? Any, any video that's on youtube now is going
to require a label if it's using A I content. So I believe you mentioned you had some strong feelings about this
So why don't we dig into that a little bit? Uh Well
I would say, I mean that not so, not so much strong
I, I see that Google have to, they have to do this for youtube
Like there's a legal threat for them. There's, there's, they have to do it
Um I think it's, it's a bit of lip service because they've got to appear to be trying to control but they can't
they can't control. Um um but they want to be able to point to a rule if they kick someone out
Um But I, I, I mean, everything's got a I now like all videos pretty much you look at any
like I'm thinking about TV ads and things like that that I, I saw on the plane on the way over here and I was
like, you know, for years now you've had like cars flying through the air and
you know, it's all, it's all generated through animation and A I, uh
and they don't have to put a disclaimer in front of the ads. Um
but you have to put a disclaimer in front of the content. Like it's, it's
there's a bit of double standards there, but I can see that I can see the political reasons why
but we are walking into this world of partial truth. Everything's going to be manipulated in some way
using the sampled music being blended with original music. I mean, that's been going on for decades anyway
but you always had to put an attribution next to it featuring so and so like
I, I think, I think some sort of modern acknowledgement of when something isn't
genuinely real. Yeah, I see this as almost like a way for youtube
They sort of cover themselves in in case something goes wrong because I can see cases where it's not very harmful
Like um someone, you know, creating a video that has a I generated images and they use it to enhance their content that's not harmful
but they're gonna have to have a disclaimer. But then someone let's say is now taking a political figure running a deep pick on them
having them say specific things that is problematic. And then the gray area where you get into parody
maybe someone takes a likeness of an artist but not fully, they just change a bit where it's legally OK
And generate a song thats where popular people love so very difficult
Exactly. You know, Taylor Swift spelled slightly differently. Looks a bit like a
sounds like a sort of like, it's just, whoa, how are you going to enforce this
And you could say, uh, I, I would come back to the idea of, of the law
like, you know, and we can't have laws for everything. So you have this
uh, certainly in English common law, which I think is the, is the basis for American law
Um reasonableness. So you say something, what would a reasonable person say was reasonable
And it's the same thing, I think with these kind of rules, you can't make the rules foolproof
There's no way that Google are gonna be able to do that and the enforcement is going to be subjective
What happens. I do think there is one case where I don't know if you've seen this but as an avid youtube user
I found channels where they generate 100% of their content using A I
you can tell the text is written or generated by CG BT
All the images are generated by mid journey and they compile it using uh some editor and throw it on youtube
And then it's picked up in the algorithm because they make a really good title and thumbnail
And then they do the same thing on shorts also and they generate millions of views
I just farming ads and they are not actually like that person is not actually involved too much in the content
They're just running through mission. Yeah. And, and actually as the A I gets better, it's going to be harder to see the difference because
you know, there's ones where they've, they've taken some footage from something and then they
they have a voice over and the script you can tell has been generated by A I
the voice sounds a bit a I ish, but as that voice becomes more normal
it's Yeah, so I can see, I mean, this is a good move from
from youtube. Yeah, just can't wait for the first Mr Beast video that will have an A I disclaimer on it
Yeah. Are we gonna do A I disclaimers man on this show
I'm not sure I real, I don't know if I'm real half the time
you know, this, this beard is completely A I generated. Um So I really don't know how much A I you even have to be
using in order to be required to put that label. Is it just like the most miniscule like if I reasonable
Right? So if I, if I upload this podcast to a machine that then cuts up the shorts for me and provides captions
do I need to then label that I'm using A I for? So I guess it's more like where there's some malicious intent
I think. So I think it's to do with the intent and also the beneficial party being ripped off or benefiting someone just steals someone
else's likeness and then put words in their mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Or take something and just suddenly changes a couple of words to make it
seem a little bit different. Oh, goodness me. It's so interesting, isn't it talking about this stuff
It's like, wow, what is going to happen in the future? I think a big thing in the future is going to be
humans are going to learn to discern real from fake and they're going to get better at having
I guess, more sophisticated bullshit detector and that's going to become a skill that everyone's going to be developing because there's so much different information
out there. It's hard to pinpoint the truth. Usually my method is the truth is somewhere in between
So you have to be really disciplined on looking at something that agitates you i an opposite viewpoint or something that you agree with
And then the truth is somewhere in that middle point and it's a hard skill
I feel like more people are going to be forced to adapt that skill moving forward and
and maybe, you know, trusted curators. So in effect, going back to the financial Times example
I trust the editorial team to serve me up with a selection of things that they used to doing
I like the fact that they're not really, like, biased one way or another politically
they're somewhere in the middle. It really just, you know how does this affect the world economy
And they do a lot of in depth stuff that I wouldn't find necessarily through an algorithm
which the algorithm it might, I don't know, talk about the, the apple juice industry or something like that
which I would never be served up unless I was like, oh, that's interesting
And I've decided, decided that rather than having served to me. So would you say trusting the curator of that content
is gonna become such an important factor for the end user? Yeah
because I'm guessing an algorithm is a, it's an avatar of an editor
right? Say it's a sort of copy, it's a machine copy of what editors used to do
And that's why really famous and fantastic sort of editorial teens. It's
it's a shame that they're not sort of um held in high esteem so much anymore because they've been sort of replaced by
you know, the Facebook. So, yeah, maybe uh maybe that old kind of New York editor
sort of the brash guy who sort of like comes in and screams at his reporters
Maybe that will come back in fashion. I don't think so, but I
I guess maybe I'm just being nostalgic. No, sorry, sorry buddy. I'm
I'm good off on one here. No, you're great. No, you're good. Uh It's
it's definitely like, it's funny that you bring up like the, the old tiny
you know, publisher that's screaming at his editors and stuff and then I see coworkers who are using A I sitting next to me and
they're getting just as angry with the A I. So it's, you know
it's just kind of like a shift but it's still keeping the same um theme of like
you know, interacting with the robot now. Um But moving on to some publishing news
uh we're starting to see ad blocking uh or at ad blockers on the rise with a staggering 912 million users worldwide
actively avoiding ads on both mobile and desktop. This trend is particularly notable on mobile devices where ad revenue per page is lower compared to
desktop. The shift from desktop to mobile browsing is expected to further fuel the use of mobile ad blockers
The decline of third party cookies, especially on platforms like Safari is squeezing publishers ability to monetize their audience effectively in the US alone
downloads of the top five ad blocking apps jumped by 17% from the second quarter to the third quarter of 2023
Publishers are now seeking new solutions like I OS block through which taps into acceptable ad programs allowing certain ads to reach users who typically
block them. Niche publishers, particularly those dependent on display ads face a higher risk from the growing trend and are exploring models that reward
users with free content for engaging with ads. It's a ch it's a changing landscape and both publishers and advertisers need to adapt to these
evolving new preferences. Uh So with, with the increased use of ad blockers
it's definitely gonna be harder for publishers to be making uh money off of their content
And I think for the last few months, one of the things that Tyler has really pushed on this podcast is the idea of diversifying
your content and not just relying on one source and being able to kind of monetize on multiple different uh mediums
not only just your written content, your video content and where you're posting your video content
but I wanted to get your guys to take especially yours, Terence, since you are a website owner and publisher
how do you see ad blockers and what is something that you could potentially do to kind of circumvent this problem
Yeah. So first things first, um they say there's 912 million active ad block users on mobile and desktop
and then it says there's an increase on mobile. Um So I think they kind of throw in that metric a little bit to kind
of make it seem bigger than it actually is. Um how I see ad blockers generally on sites
It's the cost of business and there's going to be a plateau on percentage of users that use adblock
However, I definitely see more users understanding that trade off on ads in exchange for free content and that trade off
I think it is becoming more clear as the days go on and because of that
I think more users are going to be willing to like OK. A are on this page. I'll just deal with it because I'm going
to help that end publisher, the end content creator. Same thing how like someone said youtube
hey, thank you for subscribing or hey, we really appreciate it if you turn off your ad blockers for my channel
I think that that trend in combination with this means it's not going to be that noticeable
I will say though on Safari and different browsers, there is a monetization difference on how cookies work and that probably will have a bigger
difference on your traffic. For example, if you have all your users on Chrome versus all users on Safari chrome is probably going to earn
you like two X more. Yeah, I'm I'm my uh my cynicism level is quite high on this on this story
Um because it's, it's literally in the interests of companies like Eieoeoeo um
to push these kind of stories. Um because the more people know about um ad blockers
the more people use them. A lot of people don't even think about them, especially on mobile. It's just like
oh just take the bar of entry to get ad blocks and mobile is much higher than desktop
That's right app settings on desktop is just a chrome ex engine you click
So I'll tell you a funny story which was uh in the I think late two thousands or maybe early 20 tens
Uh, the newspapers in Germany got together to, um, ask their users not to use
ad blockers and they use their own newspaper, like full page ads and things like that
using their own media to try to stop people from doing that
Guess what happened? More people use that. Yeah, exactly. So, I think the oxygen of publicity here is
I don't really want to talk about this too much because honestly, everybody that listens to this podcast are probably people who are just in
our industry and they probably, I, I do experiment with ad blockers and I just sort of see what it looks like with and without
sometimes um most people on their phones don't use ad blockers. That's still the case
Um I think we shouldn't get over focused on it. I think everybody worries about the money they're losing
Um I think it's more important to focus on the user experience and if you're giving the users what they want
so, monitoring things like navigation bounces your overall bounce rate by landing page um earnings by landing page
Yeah, exactly. Page views for visit metrics, scroll percentage, all of those uux things that
let's be honest, a lot of publishers don't spend that much time looking at their top landing page over time and seeing how the bounce
rates changing by browser or how much money they make by GEO
Um I think you can, you can go down a, a sort of a negative rabbit hole here worrying about adblock and how much
is being taken from you. Whereas young people who don't want to see ads
if you start showing them ads like that, that whole acceptable ads program
I think that's, it's just doing a deal with the devil. I mean
it's a, yeah, well, I mean, showing ads to people who don't want to see ads doesn't seem like a good idea
Also incentivizing people to see ads in exchange for content, incentivized traffic for advertisers has been tested again and again
and again, and you just end up with poor quality from the advertiser's perspective and then it doesn't translate well
So let's move on. So just it's interesting that just us talking about this will get more attention to an ad blocker to basically wasted
energy at that point. Yeah, I think so. I mean, there are ad blocker recovery programs out there
I think we've been testing some of them and I think it's ok if you can do it in a smart way
but to give them a full ad experience and I completely overcome the ad blocker
it doesn't seem like a good, a good idea. I did like your point touching on the user experience and navigation metrics
And I started a website with my brother with that philosophy in mind
We literally designed the website with what would a user want to see with this type of content and how she structure the page in
a way that appeals to this search intent. And I feel like when you have that philosophy going into it
all this adds up is secondary. Yes, absolutely. And then it's going to be a great experience for users
You want to get traffic on there eventually and then don't put the cart before the horse
you know, sort of like you go to contents number one, but really it's the user and what they get out of it
Like, do they get what they actually want? And again, if the user sees that they probably just like
yeah, it's because it is free and they move on, maybe they see something
they like, they click on it and they make a purchase and yeah
you make some revenue. Yeah, that's how this whole ad thing works
Hey, still working. We'll see our publishers tend to adapt with, with uh the ad blockers
which we should definitely stop using that, the software that shall not be named
Um But, but going from users blocking ads to websites, blocking Google Bard
uh we're seeing now over 250 websites including well known names like Ziff Davis
Vox, the New York Times, Kast and Yelp have taken significant steps by blocking Google extended this move
which has seen a dramatic, 100 and 80% increase in the past month is a response to concerns about A I companies using their content
this, these websites are using robots dot text to block Google extended A Google product designed to limit access to websites content uh by
Bard vertex A I generated API S and future A I models
However, it's important to note that this action does not completely prevent their content from appearing in Google's search generative experience or being used
to train sge. The decision reflects the growing tension between content creators and A I companies over the use of monetization of online
content. And that's really been a growing theme throughout the year and not just in publishing um with a graphic design background
That's kind of one of the biggest things that a lot of designers are concerned with
Uh you know, you spend so much time creating this artwork and then if uh you're able to just kind of feed that as a
reference into A I, someone could then recreate your work without any issues or problems
Um So what's your guys' take on these websites? Just collectively saying
no, we're not going to allow A I content or uh A I to search through our content
Yeah, a couple uh points I want to mention before really digging into it is first of all mentions
250 websites, not too many. Um Of course, these are larger publisher websites
So uh Vox New York Times and big time publishers. So what they're saying is
hey, the content on our site is unique enough and has enough value where if we block it
it's going to give us some leverage that we can later on use, which may be the case
maybe not. I don't know how unique their, their content really is. However
what this isn't saying, which I think is really important is uh smaller publishers that don't have a unique data set
They can't really do much in terms of what's being included into a large language model for its optimization
So what that turns into is basically is the content you create going to have extra value added to launching this model or no
If the answer is yes, then maybe you could do something to build up a unique set over time
The answer is no. Well, there's probably nothing you can do because you want to be in Google search and the exchange you make being
on Google search is saying, hey, it's OK for you to scrape all my content basically
Yeah. And I think it's the, it's, it's a hedge for them
And also it's also I look at this, it's almost like a cry for help, which is
you know, you've been taking our stuff for years. Um We kind of we used to have this arrangement where we would get some value
users coming to our website in return. And now with Google Snippets knowledge graph that's been going on for a long time
this wedge between the content creator and the beneficial Purveyor of it is getting wider and wider and that is
that's Google. And uh I think so and the genie is literally out of the bottle
Um I, I applaud them for doing it, but I don't think it's going to help
I, I don't think, um I think what we were saying before we started the show
like there's a lot of doom and gloom feelings about publishing and what's going to happen to the web and
and all of those feelings, there is some, there is some good news here and the fact that um if you can train uh
A I models on um with, with specific, let's say um specific data
So that in my opinion, there should be no reason why the New York Times could have its own large language model like the New
York Times with like the essence of the writers. And that's right, they're telling their story in the same way I said before
like the, the, you know, the avatar of an editor is there in the algorithm
It could, I mean, there, there's definitely some opportunity here. Do you know what I mean
Like there is some, there is some opportunity there is going to be value creation
Um It's just right now, it looks like this large language model game is too big for ordinary companies to even go anywhere near if
you want to actually construct your own models. Like, but I think, I think the off the shelf and the commoditization of large language models
will make this all available to all publishers small and big in the future
So uh where the monetization comes from. I don't know if I had to guess I would say video
So like, I don't know, you go chat with the New York Times and it
it's almost like you've got your own news reader. Yeah. And then they
yeah. So I'm conceptualizing this a bit and let's say I'm the New York Times and I have this unique set of all of the
articles we ever published with all of the writers and their tones and everything
So then I take that data, throw it into an A I like large language model
curate it fine it to match our specific style of reporting. Maybe with the our biases intended to be in there because that's what our
readers like. And then we sort of take all that data compact it into one A I agent that can then be used in like
our app or some other service that gets their, you know, user subscribers to use for free
And then basically creates another funnel point where they can access and say, hey
I just read this article about uh for example, the conflict happening around the world
Can you give me some points on A B and C in the same tone that I'm normally used to on the New York Times
And then boom, it generates, hey, this is the context of like
let's say in Gaza, like the history of it, right? And then you can learn extra points on it without having to go to another
article that you're there just asking it and it's just pulling references and tones from its existing data pool like a
like a meta that news service curated for you. Exactly. I could see that
Uh So, yeah, I don't, I mean, I do for small publishers
I don't think it's a good idea to be blocking Bard and the other models right now
I don't think that the upside is there for anyone. Um I think it's almost too late as well because whatever you've put out to
the internet that's been index is already there. There, there is one point which I was going to touch on on a later one
but just to kind of give a sneak peek which is creating a unique community
And what I mean by that is like a form like a community where you have a niche site that's super specific
but then your users are actually involved in that community by giving you user generated content ideas
And then as the publisher of that niche, you can then leverage that unique data set that starts to emerge and then leverage it to
help your audience. But and then maybe once it gets big enough, then it makes sense to block it or maybe block it from the
start and once it gets big enough, it has value, I don't buy it but sorry
Terrence. Um but yeah, I, I see. I, you know, the the trouble is we're living in a world of aggregators and yeah
Google has been the biggest aggregator of all time of, of data and information and large language worlds are now trumping that with a
with an even more sophisticated aggregator. I do have a curious question
John, if we live in a time of aggregators, right? Would you say the aggregated answer
And the aggregated information is the best? No, because I think there's a dilution when you
you, you, you go towards the average and Tyler and I touch on this
I think in the last show or one before about the ethics behind this because as you were talking about
OK, we take the, the New York Times and with all their biases now biases aren't necessarily a set of rules
So it's really hard to emulate that because the nuance is so subtle sometimes
you know, in the old days, it would be somebody says, you know, what's our position on this
And then that would be up to the people with the experience and, and the, you know, who built up their reputation over time to
make a decision and it wouldn't necessarily have to be along party lines because party lines are blurred now as well
So we're, we're in this place where the idea of keeping to some central tenants
you know, some, some ideas that are, you know, that's what we stand for
It's, it's harder and harder. So I think, I think you're, you're right in the fact that I think humans are still so we can
understand nuance, we can understand parody, we can understand humor and hopefully
right, take a joke. Um and not to then confuse that with an other forms of information
And I think computers are still not good enough for that to be trusted with all of our like
you know, what they feed us because then what they feed us, we, we start, that's how we view and that's how we understand the
world is what we see in here and, and how we talk like right now
we're, we're thinking together, aren't we? We're talking and thinking we're exchanging ideas
That's how, that's why podcasts are useful because it makes you think
Um So our, our ability to identify that bias, identify that humor
identify those subtle differences in text and language. A I can't really replicate fully and that is still where value lies
If you're trying to make something unique and valuable, that's where the short term danger is
I think the large language models is that we're going to be over relying on them too early and they are just that they're pastiche
of what they learned from. And unfortunately, I mean, you know, church EPT now is 100 million users it's probably getting trained really
really, really well. Um, and that's why it's going to be very difficult for Google to catch up
So, basically, if I understand correctly, you're saying these language models are going to come a little too vanilla
I think so. Yeah. But also they're going to have styles but like
is, it was the, the X one go? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fun mode
Yeah. And, and that, that's where it'll go. But I uh it's just the start but I think that the
the fighting over the training data, which is what we're talking about
The story. It's already, it's already happened. It's been happening for years
Nobody, none of us knew about it, right? If you think about it. Um Maybe the first I heard of large language models was about
a year ago and that was before they launched. And I remember sitting down talking to
you know, Dwayne and some of the guys here like this is gonna be
this is gonna be really interesting. There is some uh a quote by CEO or ex CEO of Venmo
which is the future is already here and we're all living in the present and what he means by that is right now
our ideas and everything we were thinking about doing is based off of past ideas and the future
new stuff is already here. We just can't see it or don't know it. We don't want to believe in it
So thinking back 10 years when, you know, these large language models were forming and becoming like possibility
no one would believe it, think it or see it. And that was the future and everyone just live in the past
Good summary. It's fascinating because it's like it coming. But at the same time we knew it was coming
I mean, and also we could all, I'm sure have a stab at what's next
I, when you were talking just then I was thinking everything that we're saying is now going to be going out into this same ether
And, and if you, if you, you know in the, with the ISO project
you know, we've always looked at data as being separate from its wrappings. So the idea of unstructured data
the just the stuff itself. So whether it's, that's text or images or video
uh it's not, that's the, that's the important bit, the rest of it
how it's transmitted either through a website or uh a podcast or a video
But I think there will be the potential future of, you know
what's going and doing work on the internet. Oh yeah, conducted by humans
I mean, it's already happening to a certain extent, but certainly this is going to be the case
Um and all of this, all of this data is going to be available
Whereas with the emergence of the the new chips and, and the amount of data that can be handled in the cloud like
it's, it's uh it, it seems almost limitless as the like. And I think the future is
is how this data is utilized in creative ways. Like I see a future where
you know, my smartphone just has all my data and boom, there's a large language model that's uniquely tuned to me
And I can just create algorithms about my life to optimize it, whether it be financial
physical, mental, emotional, whatever. And you just, it's basically already here just hasn't been put together yet
And I always think about, you know, you'll have like a phone or medium or something
just ask a question, give you an answer back and it's just going to be super easy convenience and the mediums we use today are
gonna feel arcade probably in like 50 years. Yeah, I think in 50 years and
you know, going back to the positive side of this in terms of publishing
um those of us who are reflecting, you know, putting this on the
on the rotisserie of our brains to look at it from all angles, which is what we're doing right now
Um I do think that most we're in this bubble where we're talking about large language models and thinking about it a lot
Anybody who's in our space is thinking about it more than the average Joe on the street
Most people who are driving past that side are not thinking about it and they're still
they're doing everything exactly. Sort of how they did it maybe four or five years ago
And so I think we have this period now of the next four or five years where user behavior change is going to lag behind
the capabilities of the, of, of what's on offer. But there always be the
the early adopters like us, you know, we're all talking about it and we're aware of it and I think that's where the opportunities are
is the good stuff will come out. Like for example, when I tell my grandma
hey, you know what A I is in judge, she's like what? And then you have to go and explain it and you realize they
just, you know, don't really aren't quite there yet. Yeah, no, but I definitely think there's gonna be more development in A I and
in, in the next few years, we're only gonna see it improve more but uh to try to get rid of some of the doom
and gloom from the news today. Yeah, let's go into some positivity
So we're seeing some uh search ranking improvements off of Google's latest updates
So as we all remember, Google recently rolled out a significant search ranking update focusing on surfacing content rich in personal insight and experiences
from social media, blogs forums and other platforms. This initiative aims to uncover hidden gems on the web where individuals share firsthand
knowledge. Notably, this update is part of Google's core ranking algorithm and not just the helpful content system
The emphasis is on promoting authentic valuable content. Shifting the focus from technical seo to the quality and authenticity of
the content. This change may impact website rankings for specific queries, urging seo professionals to adapt their strategies accordingly
In a recent podcast, Google's John Mueller Martin split and Gary. Uh I I yet I I let I'm sorry
I'm totally butchering this name had to deal with that his whole life
And I, and I'm here just adding to the problem discuss site quality
highlighting its subject, subjective nature and importance of user satisfaction over technical optimization for seo professionals
The message is clear, prioritize creating original helpful content and focusing on user intent to truly resonate with your audience in this evolving digital
landscape. So we're seeing some posi positive news coming out of this and uh Terrence
you were mentioning that you were actually uh seeing some of the positive impact on your website from this
Yeah. So a little background, I run a personal blog that takes life stories from
from myself and has a data aspect to it. So an example would be I did a trip in Europe and I mapped my
let's say expenses per day, average per country. And basically figured out
hey, if you go to this country, you're gonna spend this much per day backpacking
you go to Germany, it's gonna be like 300. If you go to Spain, it's gonna be a little bit cheaper
right? Um So that's one example. So this website has its personal stories and they're basically anecdotes but explains
an important concept. So that concept was budgeting for traveling was a topic with my story as like the background
And for this website, I actually haven't touched it in two years and all my traffic went away
went to zero. Right. Then after the recent algorithm updates, lo and behold
it just came back out of the blue without any updates or touching it. So to me that signals Google does like these really unique
and interesting experiences that you have as an individual life. And if Google is signaling that that's valuable
then other users are too. So how I read that is users like to read stories and they like to have a story that explains
a topic or a learning point. And if there's a story behind it, it makes it more valuable
So my advice on the positive side here is if you're a publisher and you have a lot of old outdated content that no longer
gets traffic, maybe it did like three or four years ago, go back and look at it and see if you can add any personal
stories to it. Something that isn't an accurate of a large language model
Something that is like refreshing to hear and it's not too wordy that you know
is well written and easy to understand for an average reader. And I feel like you would find a lot of success using that strategy
How do you think Google uh identify these? So sites, if I had a guess they probably
could like take a web page, take that text data and then generate sort of a topic summary or like a keyword on it and
then take that same keyword and run it through large language model and then compare the two and see like would our large language model
ever produce this part of this? And then they find those differences and say
wait, this article has a lot of differences, but it's still good content
So maybe it's unique content that a large language model hasn't seen yet. Because my understanding of how and this is separate from how helpful
content is, you know, how many cupcake websites does the web need
you know, or recipe sites? And you know, how many ways are there to make a lasagna
You know, it's, there is limited value in doing exactly the same as 10,000 other site
Maybe you need 500 sites or 1000 sites or 10,000 sites, but certainly not 100,000 sites all talking about
So I think that's where Google's got it right. My opinion on this would be more along the lines of the
the way that Google tests um content and you know this right where they'll put you in 52nd position and then they'll put you in
number three for a day in a certain GEO and then they'll drop you down again and then they'll look at the search satisfaction comparing
the two. So I think what they're doing is that they're broadening
maybe not 52 maybe it's 78 you know, or 100 and 25 to try to rotate some unusual
content. That's not a retread. And I think, I think you're right in saying that maybe there would be a large language model ysis of
it to see how unpredictable the content is. And if it's, if it's very broadly similar to lots and lots of other sites
then that probably low value, then that's lower value. Well, and it genuinely is lower value
right? Because as a user, why would you care? Yeah. So welcome to my little corner of the internet where I like to talk about
recipes, you know, continuing on how Google looks at sites too. They also look at
you know, the trail of users, right? User one goes has a search result with rankings and then their interactions on the results page
or clicks their scroll, et cetera is going to influence the results for the next user
And they do have that user bounce where each user is going to improve the results for the next user
And so if let's say you get a chance where your unique site pops up and you have great navigation
easy to use website, then you're going to have great metrics for that user that happens to click on it
then that's going to feed back into Google's algorithm and say, hey, this user had positive signals
the next one's probably gonna positive signals and it just keeps going. Yeah. And again
it's coming back to the core of what makes it good is actually the match between what people are looking for and what
they get. And then all the wrappings is that the sort of ancillary stuff
And I, you know, we've seen certain, you know, ad treatments, for example
on the, on the internet, you know, where users are, you know
all being treated the same way and we get 15 ads and they all get refreshed and it slows the page down
Google is really good at seeing, you know, if people have been bounced away because of that abuse of the user
Well, and of the advertiser if you think about it. Um, that is not good
So, um, yeah, I think Google, they're still the smartest search engine out there
Let's not forget they are still the best I did. Did you ever try being yourself
Yes, I didn't like it. I, I switched over just because I thought
well, they've got open A I feeding, you know, it's going to be good. It felt like there was more work
Yeah. And it was really unfamiliar and some of the results would look good
Yeah. So for, for me it's like I judge the first result a lot and if first result is bad chances are I might just
try a different search or, you know, maybe click on two or three
And, um, I guess going back to the point about, you know, ads and I guess overall site layout is
you know, ads could be a reason user bounces but maybe you have something broken on your site too or maybe you have an outdated
you know, theme or design that is not friendly. It's not easy to find what the users are looking for and that causes a bounce
too. So I think it's important as you know, a website owners
you know, really looking at us your experience data and just go back to first principles
Like imagine you were putting in the search result, what would you expect to be the best way for a website to answer this and
just stick to those first principles and then see from there? Yeah
So we're definitely gonna see uh some positive changes uh for some for publishers over the next few years
Um And just like you said, John, I'm interested to see how things develop
Uh But that is going to conclude this week's episode. I want to say thank you again for joining us on another episode of the
Publisher Lab. Thank you, John Cole and Terrence Timmons for joining me on this episode as well
Uh Anything else that you guys want to say anywhere you guys want to point our audience to um
I recently deleted my Instagram so I can't, uh, like that. What made you do that
I just, one day I woke up and I was like, I'm not getting value out of this and then I just deleted it
I haven't looked at it. The news quality on Instagram is terrible. I'm gonna stick with tiktok
Oh, all right. OK. I, I guess I'll give tiktok a try
How about that? Give tiktok a try. I'll be the old guy on part of the 8% or whatever it is or you know
your screen time is going to skyrocket. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold you to that one
John and next time you're on the podcast, I'm gonna follow up as you see what your tiktok experience is
Feedback. Yeah, I'm gonna see if you have any good dances that you guys can teach me. Definitely that dancing
Well, again, thank you for joining us on another episode of the Publisher Lab. Uh You can find all of our stuff
all of our write ups on Publisher lab.org and we'll see you again here next week
Thank you for joining the publisher