Hi there. I'm John mcadams, founder of the big game hunting blog
In this video, I'm going to do a detailed comparison of the 3030 Winchester and 4570 government cartridges
Now, I think that most hunters would agree that the 3030 the 4570 are both fantastic lever action cartridges for hunting
All sorts of big game, both offer certain advantages to hunters, but there are some significant differences between the 3030 the 4570 that
you need to be aware of. Now, both are extremely popular among those who love hunting with a lever gun and both have proven track
records a field over the past century. However, while there is an overlap in their capabilities
the two cartridges are really best suited for different hunting situations. So in this episode
I'm gonna do a detailed comparison of the 3030 the 4570 in order to show the differences between them and cover the pros and cons
of each one, so you can decide which cartridge will work best for you
So first up, let's talk about the history of the 3030 the 4570 this will provide a good basis for the rest of the comparison
The American Civil War in the years, immediately following the conflict saw a surge in development of new breach loading rifles and cartridges using
metallic cases in the United States. Not surprisingly, the United States army began the search for a new cartridge and breach loading rifle to
replace the muzzle loading rifles and paper cartridges that most American soldiers still primarily used at the time
Like with a few exceptions, after temporarily adopting the 50 70 government cartridge in the single shot Springfield model 1866 breech
loading rifle as a short lived improvement over the more primitive muzzle loading rifles used during the civil war
The army adopted an even more improved rifle cartridge combination as a replacement in 1873 the single shot 1873 Springfield rifle
better known as the trapdoor. Springfield served as the primary service rifle used by the United States army until the 3040 crag came along
A couple decades later, the rifle debuted with a new 45 caliber cartridge using a powder charge of 70 grains of black powder
In a copper case, the army used a couple of different loads firing either 405 grain or 500 grade bullets for the cartridge
These performance specifications are where the name of the cartridge comes from
Now, the standard naming convention in common use at the time consisted of the caliber of the cartridge followed by the standard load of powder
in grains. Since the new cartridge was designed at the United States government operated Springfield Armory and used either a 405 grain or a 500
grain 45 caliber bullet propelled by 70 grains of powder. The cartridge received the designation 45 74 05 or 45
7500, depending on the exact load. Commercial publications and catalogs soon began referring to the cartridge as the 4570
government and the name stuck. Now, the original black powder load for the 4570 pushed a cast lead bullet at a velocity of about 1350
ft per second, producing more than 1600 ft pounds of muzzle energy
This cartridge was one of the most powerful loads available at the time and was effectively used by the army throughout the Indian Wars
In the late 18 hundreds, the US army continued to use various models of this rifle and cartridge in limited numbers through the Spanish American
War and Philippine insurrection in the late 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds
When the Springfield 1892 Craig Jorgensen rifle started to replace the trapdoor Springfield
In addition to the many variations of the trapdoor Springfield, the army used several early gatling gun models
fired the 4570 government cartridge as well as is often the case with uh these military cartridges
The 4570 government also quickly became popular among sportsmen in the USA in response to significant demand for good rifles chambered in the cartridge
it didn't take long for the major manufacturers to begin building 4570 government rifles specifically marketed and designed for civilian hunters
Soon hunters had access to a number of high quality lever action and single shot rifles in repeaters such as the Rimington keane
the Remington Rolling block, the Sharps 1874 Buffalo rifle, the Winchester Hotchkiss
the Winchester model 1885 High Wall and the Winchester model 1886. Even when using the relatively simple solid lead bullets available
at the time, the 4570 was extremely effective on game ranging from white tailed deer and black bear all the way up to larger
tougher and sometimes more dangerous species like moose grizzly bear and bison
Now the replacement of the 4570 in military service by the 3040 crag roughly coincided with the beginning of widespread adoption
of smokeless powder cartridges. Well, the 3030 Winchester made history as the first sporting cartridge loaded exclusively with smokeless
powder first introduced by Winchester repeating arms in 1895 for their model 1894 rifle
Winchester originally named the cartridge we now know as the 3030 as the 30 Winchester smokeless
And the new cartridge carried a 30 WCF head stamp which was short for 30 Winchester Center fire
However, the management at rival gun manufacturer Marlin knew a good thing when they saw it and they adopted that same cartridge for use in
their model 1893 rifle. A couple months later, not wanting to give their competitor Winchester free advertising
Marlo worked with the Union Metallic cartridge company to produce identical ammunition with the designation 3030 smokeless or just 3030 for
short, just like the origin of the 4570 name U MC de derived those names by using the black powder naming convention in common
in common use at the time that consisted of the caliber of the cartridge followed by the standard load of powder in grains
Since the new Winchester cartridge used a 30 caliber bullet propelled by 30 grains of smokeless powder
That cartridge received the designation 3030. Despite the best efforts of the management at Marlin
the name 3030 Winchester eventually stuck in the cartridge now carries a 3030 win head stamp
Now, the original 3030 Winchester load used 100 60 grain bullet propelled at about 1970 ft per second
This was a significant step up in performance compared to the two black powder cartridges available in the Winchester model 94
At the time, the 3240 Winchester which fired 100 65 grain bullet at about 1450 ft per second
And the 3855 which fired a 255 grain bullet at about 1320 ft per second
Now the 3030 Winchester came along before bolt action rifles really started becoming common and most hunters in the US still used lever action rifles
So by introducing a new cartridge that was both dramatically more powerful than the competition
but available in a dependable, lightweight, easy to handle and reasonably priced rifle
In the model 1894 Winchester created the perfect conditions for a major commercial success with the 3030 Winchester
Not surprisingly hunters all over North America quickly started snapping up the new rifles and cartridges over the years
the 3030 Winchester has gained a reputation as a wonderful cartridge for hunting deer
black bear and feral hogs at short to moderate range. Indeed, it is possible that American hunters have taken more deer with model 94 rifles
chambered in 3030 than any other rifle cartridge combination. Now, let's talk about the relative sizes of the 3030 the 4570
So first, the 4570 government is physically much larger than the 3030 cartridge
While the two cartridges have the same maximum authorized overall length of 2.55 inches
The 4570 government uses a larger diameter case than the 3030. So specifically
the 4570 has a larger 0.608 inch rim diameter while the 3030 has a 0.506 inch rim diameter
Additionally, while they're both rimmed cartridges, the 4570 uses a straight wall case
While the 3030 uses a bottlenecked case. The end result is that the 4570 has a much larger case capacity than the 3030
Now, bullet size is another one of the obvious differences. Each cartridge uses different diameter bullets
0.308 inch bullets for the 30 30.458 inch bullets for the 4570
The vast majority of 3030 factory loads shoot bullets in the 140 to 100 and 90 grain range
And of these 1 41 51 6170 grain bullet weights are by far the most common
On the other hand, though, it is possible to find 4570 ammo shooting bullets weighing as little as 250 grains and as heavy as 500
grains. Most 4570 factory loads use 325 350 or 405 grain bullets
Now, the 3030 also has a higher maximum semi authorized pressure than the 4570 of 42,000 P si versus 28,000 P si
Now those pressure figures can be somewhat misleading though. This is because the 3030 was designed from the very beginning to use smokeless powder while
the 4570 was originally designed for black powder before being adopted to use smokeless powder
And since there are so many older trapdoor Springfield rifles still out there
ammunition manufacturers download many of their factory loads for safe use in those rifles that said modern loads like the Marlin 1895
use much stronger actions and are safe to use with higher pressure ammunition
And you can definitely find that stuff from various manufacturers these days and we'll talk about that a little bit more later
So for right now, just realize that the Samy standards for the 4570 are a little bit artificially low for that reason
All right. Now, let's talk about the ballistics of these two cartridges. Not surprisingly
the differences in the external dimensions of the 3030 the 4570 translate into some pretty significant differences in their ballistic performance
And this is illustrated when you compare Hornady lever revolution, Remington Klok and Buffalo bore factory ammunition
Specifically, those loads use 100 60 grain and 325 grain, Hornady ftx 170 grain and 405 grain Remington Cor
Lock and 190 grain and 405 grain Buffalo bore jacketed flat nose loads for each cartridge
Now note that that 405 grain Remington Core Lock 4570 government ammo essentially duplicates the original black powder 4570 loading ballistics
Now, in terms of external ballistics, the 3030 has about a 200 to 400 ft per second advantage in muzzle velocity over the 4570
But the 4570 uses significantly heavier bullets and has much more muzzle energy than the 3030
That advantage in energy does narrow as the range increases, but neither cartridge is really ideally suited for longer range shooting
Now, it ranges inside 100 and 50 yards where they're both the strongest
The 4570 has a very clear advantage over the 3030 in the energy department
Specifically, with the exception of that one really low powered 4570 load
the 4570 government has about 50 to 97% more muzzle energy than the 3030 with these three particular loads
So the 4570 is much more powerful than the 3030. But that's not really surprising considering the big differences in their external dimensions
With all that said though, it is important to note that the 3030 Winchester has a flatter trajectory with less bullet drop
Now, the 3030 isn't normally considered a good long range cartridge, but it definitely has an edge over the 4570 in that regard at 300
yards, the various 4570 loads have about 7 to 19 inches, which works out to about 25 to 90% more bullet drop
than the comparable 3030 loads. Now, while I wouldn't necessarily advise taking shots on game with a 3030 out to 300 yards
the situation is different at 200 to 250 yards and the 3030 also has a big advantage with bullet drop
At those shorter ranges. Now, that of course, does not include the 4570 core locked ammunition that mimics the original 4570 load
That particular load has less than half the muzzle energy of more modern 4570 loads and about 15% less muzzle energy than the least powerful
3030 load that we've talked about here today. It also has by far the most arcing trajectory of these six loads with more bullet drop
at 200 yards than the horned D 3030 load has at 300 yards
And this is a good example of how modern smokeless powders really push the 4570 into a whole new level of performance
We'll talk more about those numbers and what they mean in a minute. Now, let's talk about recoil though specifically
we compare the recoil produced by hand loads that approximate the hornady lever revolution factory loads for each cartridge when fired from identical £8 rifles
In this case, the 4570 has more than twice as much recoil as the 3030
Now, that should not be surprising at all. After all, the 4570 is a heavy hitting big boar cartridge while the 3030 is a mild
mannered deer cartridge known for moderate recoil. Basically, the 4570 should be expected to hit a little harder on both ends
And that is exactly the case while the 4570 does indeed have quite a bit more recoil than the 3030
We're not talking about ridiculous amounts of recoil here either for reference this particular 4570 load that we're talking about recoils about as much as
many seven millimeter Remington magnum or 300 wind mag loads. And it has less than half the free recoil energy of the really heavy hitting
458 wind mag. Additionally, this recoil can be mitigated to a certain extent with the use of a muzzle break or a good recoil pad
So the extra recoil of the 4570 isn't necessarily a deal breaker for many people and lots of hunters handle it with no issues at
all. But recoil is certainly worth considering though, don't underestimate the impact that recoil has on the ability of a person to shoot accurately
Either some people handle recoil better than others, but all other things being equal
they will absolutely shoot more accurately with a milder recoiling cartridge. Now
additionally, we can't have a discussion of these two cartridges without covering the importance of bullet diameter
Now, as I mentioned earlier, the 4570 uses a larger diameter bullets than the 3030
Specifically the larger diameter 0.458 inch bullets used by the 4570 have more than twice as much frontal surface area as the 0.308 inch
bullets used by the 3030. All other things being equal, a bigger bullet will make a bigger hole cause more tissue damage and result in
more blood loss with whatever animal we're talking about that gets hit by this bullet
Now, this is a big factor in favor of the 4570 especially when we're talking about hunting a really big or dangerous game
Now, what about accuracy of these cartridges? It's really tough to pick a winner here
both are capable of good accuracy but neither one is really known for precision shooting
at least by modern standards. Now, the 4570 is still used by many black powder silhouette shooters and both cartridges are used by cowboy action
shooters. But that's about the extent of their usage these days for competitive shooting
Now, additionally, it is unusual to encounter rifles chambered in either cartridge that are exceptionally accurate as we'll cover here shortly
Both cartridges are most commonly available in lever action rifles for a number of reasons
Lever action rifles are generally not quite as accurate as bolt action rifles
However, this isn't that big of an issue for most hunters because good lever action rifles are still accurate enough
You probably won't be shooting sub m away with a rifle rifle chambered in either cartridge
but a rifle that shoots two or 2.5 ma is still plenty accurate for just about anything
You'd be using a lever action rifle for like I said, that's not to say that these cartridges aren't capable of great accuracy at times
or are strictly limited to short range shots. Indeed, the 4570 was a long range cartridge back when it first came on the scene
Buffalo hunters back in the late 18 hundreds used tang or latter iron sights with vernier scales that allowed for very precise elevation adjustments
as long as he estimated the range correctly, which was pretty difficult at
at times a skilled marksman using a high quality rifle in sight could accurately hit targets out past 1000 yards
Using the 4570 that said though hitting a target at 1000 yards is a far cry from taking a shot on an animal at that
range due to these constraints. While the 4570 is popular among black powder silhouette shooters
few modern hunters intentionally used the cartridge at ranges past 200 yards on un wounded game
Now, the same is true to a certain extent with a 3030 that cartridge does have an advantage with the flatter trajectory and less recoil
Both of which do facilitate better shot placement. So it is possible that the 3030 Winchester may have a tiny edge in accuracy potential at
hunting ranges, but it's not a gigantic difference. So where do we stand with each cartridge with modern factory ammo
The 3030 normally has a higher velocity, less recoil and less bullet drop at most ranges
However, the 4570 has substantially more muscle energy and more retained energy at typical hunting ranges since the 4570 has so much
more kinetic energy and shoots significantly larger diameter and heavier bullets. It is clearly the more powerful of the two
It's also hands down the best option for hunting really big and or dangerous North American game animals
This power does come at the expense of a lot more recoil. Though
on the other hand, with a flatter trajectory, less recoil and plenty of power for hunting a deer size game at short to moderate range
The 3030 is a wonderful choice for deer size game. There's no question that the 4570 is a better choice for bigger game
But the 3030 gets the job done on critters like deer, black bear and feral hogs without nearly as much recoil
And now let's talk about AMMO for these two cartridges while not quite on the level of really popular cartridges like the 223 or the
308 Winchester. In terms of raw AM O sales, the 3030 the 4570 are both extremely popular center fire rifle cartridges
In fact, they're probably the two most popular cartridges used in liver action rifles in North America that said the 3030 Winchester is definitely the
more widely used of the two in general though the 4570 government is by no means rare
So they're both in common use and AMMO is usually really easy to find for both availability also likely varies regionally though
for instance, I bet that a lot more people tend to use the 4570 government up in Alaska where its hard hitting characteristics are useful
on creatures like moose and brown bear in general. I would also say that 3030 ammo is typically noticeably cheaper than 4570 ammo
And the big ammo manufacturers like Barnes Buffalo bore federal premium, Hornady Nosler Remington and Winchester all produce a really good selection of
both 30 30 45 70 government ammunition since the 3030 the 4570 are both very popular in lever action rifles with
tubular magazines. Most loads feature a round nosed or a flat tipped bullet
This is because bullets are stacked one in front of the other and recoil could potentially cause a bullet with a pointed tip to detonate
the primer of the cartridge in front of it in one of these tubular magazines
Now, unfortunately, those round or flat nosed bullets do have a low ballistic coefficient and poor downrange performance
Uh That is not that big of a deal at typical hunting ranges uh for these cartridges
but it does restrict things a little bit. However, uh designers at Hornady have attempted to solve that problem with their lever revolution line of
ammunition for cartridges like the 3030 the 35 Remington and the 4570 government that are popular in lever guns
This ammunition is loaded with bullets that have a pointed flexible polymer tip while it doesn't bring them up anywhere close to the level of
stuff like the seven millimeter mag or the 300 wind mag. The liver revolution ammunition does use more aerodynamic bullets and generally has a higher
velocity than typical ammunition for these cartridges. As a result, this ammunition does have a slightly flatter trajectory
a slightly increased effective range and it retains more energy at typical hunting ranges than the traditional AMMO for those cartridges
Now that aside hand loaders will appreciate the fact that reloading components for both cartridges are also readily available
And there is an especially wide variety of bullet choices for both the 3030 the 4570
So you should not have any trouble working up a good custom load for either one
If you like the hand load bullets like the Barnes, TSX, the Hor DFTX and Mono Fex and the Nosler partition
Just to name a few are options if you want to reload the 4570 the 3030 and lots of people who roll their own also
just use plain old cast lead bullets in each car, church as well
And that stuff also tends to work really well. A field on a lot of game. All right
Now, let's talk about rifle selection. There is also a pretty good selection of good hunting rifles chambered in both 30 30 45 70
Though, once again, there tend to be more options for rifles in 3030
Now, since they are both rimmed cartridges, the 3030 the 4570 are most commonly though not exclusively chambered in single shot and or
lever action firearms. Now, in addition to the Winchester 1894 and the Marlin 1893 that were first available in 3030
The Savage model 99 was a very popular rifle in that chambering for many years
The Marlin 336 is currently one of the most popular rifles currently manufactured in 3030
Additionally, Henry has produced several lever action models in 3030 like the Henry all weather as has Mossburg with the Mossburg 464472
and 479. Though it was never really a popular cartridge for bolt action rifles
Winchester did produce the model 54 in 3030 for a time and so did Remington and Savage and a few others with the Remington 788
in the Savage model 340. Thompson Center has also produced their break action single shot contender rifle and handgun in the 3030
cartridge for many years. And the same thing goes for Ruger with their Ruger number one
single shot. Now, in addition to the rifles and car beans originally chambered in 4570 from the late 18 hundreds that are still floating around
out there, there are several different firearms in current production chambered in that cartridge
Specifically the Marlin 1895 lever action, which is the bigger brother to the Marlin 336 is likely the single most popular rifle manufactured
in 4570 today. Those Marlin rifles are available in several different configurations with different barrel and magazine links and styles as well as different
finishes. In particular, the model 1895 G guide gun is one of the most iconic 4570 rifles in current production
And it is a favorite among hunting guides in places like Alaska who need a fast pointing and hard hitting rifle in case they must
deal with an angry grizzly or brown bear at close range. In addition to the Marlin lever action
the various Henry 4570 rifles are also very nice and are continually growing in popularity
And of course, Winchester also continues to manufacture the legendary 1886 and 4570
Now though it is no longer in current production, the Ruger number one single shot rifle was manufactured in 4570 for a time and those
rifles can be found occasionally on the secondary market. And finally, a number of Siamese Mauser bolt action rifles were converted to 4570
over the years. So they are also an option as well for someone who wants a bolt action 4570
So with all that stuff being said, which cartridge is right for you
Well, do you primarily hunt medium sized game like white tail deer, feral hogs or black bear at ranges within 200 yards
Both are extremely effective deer hunting cartridges and they will absolutely get the job done on medium size game if you do your part
Now, since they are both common in fast handling and easy to carry lever action rifles
both cartridges are well suited for situations where you'll be hunting in thick brush or in the tight confines of a deer stand
Now, the 3030 in particular is a great deer hunting cartridge and remains one of the most popular North American hunting cartridges
Don't let anybody try to tell you that the 4570 is overkill on deer though
there's not a darn thing wrong with using the 4570 on deer and I certainly have
but it is really more gun than you need for that sort of work though
It is admittedly a little rougher on both the shoulder and the wallet than the 3032
Now, are you looking for the cartridge better suited for long range hunting for game like a mule deer or prong horn in open country
where you might need to take a shot at several 100 yards. Well, both have a much longer effective range than cartridges like the 45
colt and the 44 magnum when fired from a car beam, neither the 3030 nor the 4570 is a good choice for hunting situations where
you might need to take a shot at ranges over 200 yards of the two
the 3030 does have a flatter trajectory and a little bit longer effective range
especially when using modern ammo, like hornady lever revolution line. You might be able to make a shot on a deer out to around 300
yards or so under ideal conditions with the 3030. But I think that's pushing it if we're being honest
something like the 308, the 270 the seven millimeter mag the 30 06 or even the 65 Creedmoor is a much better choice for that
sort of hunting at longer range. Now, do you want a hunting cartridge that's well suited for use on bigger game like bison Moose or
elk hunting? The 3030 will certainly get the job done on those bigger creatures with good shot placement
And when using high quality ammo, that said the 4570 is just a much better choice for these types of hunts because it just hits
so much harder and because it uses significantly larger diameter and heavier bullets
regardless of which cartridge you choose, realize that your effective range is fairly limited with both of them
especially on really large game. They are both certainly capable of cleanly and ethically taking really big game like moose
but you should only take shots within 100 50 yards or so and 100 yards is even better
Now, are you specifically hunting brown or grizzly bear. What if you hunt in Canada or Alaska
And you need a heavy hitting cartridge just in case you find yourself on the wrong end of a grizzly or a brown bear attack
Once again, the 4570 government is the best choice here. Hands down and it is one of the best bear defense cartridges available after all
There's a reason why the Marlin Guide gun is so popular among hunters and outfitters in Alaska
It is a great gun with lots of stopping power and there are a few other rifles I would rather have in my hands if
I had to deal with a charging brown bear. Now, are you sensitive to recoil and you want something that's just recoils a little bit
less? Well, in this case, the 3030 Winchester is easily the best choice and that cartridge has a reputation for manageable recoil even in lightweight
and easy to carry rifles that said even the mild mannered 3030 Winchester might still be too much for extremely recoil sensitive shooters to handle
Now, the 3030 Winchester and the 4570 government are both excellent rifle cartridges while there is quite a bit of overlap in their capabilities
realize that they are best suited for different hunting conditions. The 3030 for use on deer size game and the 4570 for bigger and or
uh, more dangerous game where you need a lot of power in a fast pointing rifle
All things considered, the difference between them is pretty big in some areas like recoil and their effectiveness on really big gain
So carefully yze your potential needs before making a decision. If you really need the advantages
the 4570 government offers, then by all means purchase one. However, the 3030 Winchester will work really well for most hunters
especially if they mainly hunt game like deer and or feral hogs
In the end, a lot of this decision comes down to personal preference. So choose the one that you feel most comfortable with and it
will probably serve you really well a field. All right. Now, if you enjoyed this video
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out on any of my new videos about hunting gear, reviews, strategies and more for more detailed information on some of the most popular hunting
cartridges. Click on the link in the description below and get a free ebook
I've written that talks about all of the best hunting calibers. Now
I'm gonna turn it over to you guys. Which cartridge do you prefer
The 3030 or the 4570? What game have you successfully taken with each one
Let me know by leaving a comment on this video right now. Thanks for watching
Have a great day and happy hunting