Every so often, science has the power to blow your mind
Like when my dad told me the Earth wasn't fat. And I wondered why people didn't shop off the bottom
Or the fact that the Earth was really just a dot, orbiting another dot
an advanced science dot, that made up our galaxy's infinite alphabet dot
Well, the long-range thing is about to happen again. I think we are really close to latest experiments
because there is nothing to visit steam engines. Steaming the trees will drive me insane
And it's time for the universe to get a reboot. We're looking for the machine terror of the universe
Is it possible that you found this tone? That's a, that's a lazy question
So buckle up, because we're on a quest to find the next big breakthrough
in our understanding of the universe. I've worked in lots of science, and I've simply never seen a case
where things have gone so well. This quest isn't going to be a complete wild goose chase
To quote Boris Johnson, we will destroy the science. But the reason I think there might be something big on the horizon
is that history is following a pattern, and just before a massive breakthrough is made
there seems to be a certain set of circumstances, and we, well I think, it seems like we're in that exact set of circumstances right now
And to understand why, we need to go back in time. A hundred years ago, the establishing belief of planets called Vulcan
was very close to the sun, because they knew Vulcan's gravity could change something weird
Nature is exceptionally wobbly orbits. And when an average scientist called Albert Einstein came along
and told them Vulcan didn't exist, and that their whole idea about the universe, time and space, was wrong
they laughed. And now, a number of scientists think the establishment is making the same mistake again
Oh yeah, hi Dr Clark, I think I'm outside, because up there in the universe, we're seeing a lot of very weird things
which the establishment is explaining with the modern version of Planet Vulcan
You're making me terrified. How are you doing, you alright? Dr Clark has written books about every major paradigm shift throughout history
If anyone can spot history repeating itself, it'll be him. I'm fine
The amount of weird stuff that we're seeing is growing and growing and growing
The establishment relies on the gravity from Dark Matter to explain the way the universe looks
But Dark Matter could be another Vulcan, because despite 30 years of searching, we've still not detected any
There's more and more skepticism within the community about this. And then even more bizarre, to explain the weird behavior of the universe at the largest scale
the establishment has been forced to call upon Dark Energy. We have the coolest Dark Energy mission to show them that we're here
It just feels like it's something that we invented. A bit like Planet Vulcan
But most telling, the establishment theory of everything, the String Theory, is still unproven
It's a theoretical physics version of banging your head against a brick wall
If you could apply it to humans, it wouldn't even have stepped out of their theory
It's a pure hypothesis. And it's been a hypothesis for 50 years. Yes
It's not merely about the laboratory, but actually it's physics as a whole
We've come to a bit of a cold start. And do you think that maybe all the ingredients are there for something big
some really big change in our understanding, that might certainly make all these weird observations climb space
Well, I certainly hope so. You know, you certainly haven't gone mad
And it mirrors a lot of the ways that I think as well
It's good to know I'm not bonkers. And I do have to thank Dr. Clark
We've spent a good day chatting about all the past breakthroughs and how it often takes decades before some genius and their breakthrough is accepted
So it's entirely possible that out there somewhere, there's a genius with an answer
All we've got to do is find them. Okay, so where would we begin our quest
Well, Mrs. Biscuit would suggest we begin the quest by tidying the office
But I say no. Although I am going to have to tidy it, because incredibly we're going to be zooming someone pretty important very soon
And I think just it's because of lockdown. I think the world's geniuses are sort of twitting their thumbs a bit
when they're in lockdown and they're agreeing to zoom idiots like me. Professor Donald Hoffman from California is a topical psychologist
Not the most obvious place to start our quest, but it turns out his special subject is how we humans see the universe
His experiment suggests that what we think we see isn't what's really there
So I'm looking for the next great breakthrough in our understanding of the universe
And I believe you discovered something really important. Yeah, so most of my colleagues think that evolution shapes our senses to tell us truths about objective reality
The assumption is that animals who see the truth about their surroundings
are better at hunting and better at avoiding being hunted. It sounds very, very plausible
Who could argue against that? So I decided to check it out
Professor Hoffman used some very powerful computers and a very powerful theory called evolution game theory
to see if his assumption was correct. And we have a theorem
The theorem is quite the opposite of the intuition. The theorem says the probability is zero that anything we see is the truth
That's what it entails. That's a stunning result of the math. In other words, I'll put it really briefly
Seeing the truth will drive you to think. That's what the theorem says
Seeing the truth will drive you to think. Wow. If Professor Hoffman is right
then his result could potentially turn our understanding of the universe on its head
What's going on with that? Why? That's a great question. I think the best way to get the inspiration is
suppose you have two people playing a race card game. One guy gets to just turn a wheel
and see, you know, graphics in cars and go pull up a race track
The other guy has an electrode inside the computer and he's toggling voltages as fast as he can to help him play the game
And the question is, which guy's going to win the game? The guy who can just turn his wheel
or the guy who's going to have to, like, toggle voltages Good luck toggling voltages
So you're seeing the truth, but it won't help you play the game. So I was interested the wrong way around then
because when you said the guy who's driving and you're seeing the roads
he's not actually seeing what's real. That's right. You're saying the guy who's toggling the voltages is seeing what's real
That's right. Oh my God. So these guys were seeing a... A VR
So these guys were seeing a... A VR. A virtual reality. And the reason is because it's easier to understand
The virtual world is easier. Is that right? It takes less time, less energy
It allows you to act more quickly. So just like the guy's trying to toggle voltages to win the video game
he's seeing the truth, but it's just too slow and too complicated
So evolution has just wiped that away and says, you don't need to know all that. We've given you the simple dumbed-down user interface that haunts the truth
and just gives you a little eye scan. It lets you play the game, like the video game
drive in the car and turn the steering wheel without seeing the reality
that you are affecting reality and we're completely ignorant of what that reality is and how we're affecting it
Is your head hurting? Mine is. According to the good professor, everything we see is an illusion created in our virtual reality
Can you add a few heads to it? I was just getting my head around this a little bit
So the distance between my two fingers here doesn't have to be real at all
In fact, it probably isn't. You're saying that this distance could be a bit more like the matrix
or a bit like we're a virtual reality game. The metaphor is, these fingers are just pixels on a screen
a virtual reality screen, and what's really going on is a lot of ones and zeros in some places in there. Exactly
That's right. Oh my gosh. Okay, this is big. Because it means that everything we see
and everything we know, including all the pixels, is really just what's inside our virtual reality object
We've got about as much clues as we know do when we're stuck inside the matrix
as to what is outside of it. Truth is, it might be impossible for us ever to find out
The thing is, our virtual headset may help us survive, but it also acts like a barrier
stopping us from seeing what's really there. Think about it like this
If we were creatures in a computer game, then we'd be trapped in our virtual world
In this case, the computer screen. We'd never get to see the computer or the computer code
that is responsible for lighting up the pixels. To find out what's really going on beyond the screen
we'd have to somehow travel past the pixels. So, this is a long shot for our quest to move forward
If we can turn inside a genius, we might be looking past the pixels
of our virtual reality headset. Where are we going to find them
Well, weirdly, it seems to me like quantum mechanics already has a pretty good definition
of the size of the pixels in our virtual reality world. So, I think we should look at quantum mechanics, you know
if we want to find out what's going on with these pixels
A hundred years ago, these guys came up with quantum mechanics. And today, most of us just believe
everything we want to say is quantized. And I would argue that instead of the word quantized
you could say pixelated. So, we need to find a scientist who's willing to go smaller than these pixels
which is 10 to the minus 35 metres, and find out what lies beyond
Problem is, almost every scientist thinks that's impossible. I did say almost
Two of the founding fathers weren't quite for sure. One was Schrodinger, and the other was Einstein
Einstein was convinced that something lurked beyond, and he wasn't convinced the other Noggins
had got the theory quite right. A quick demo will show you why
So, hold on to your Noggin, I think we're about to get very, very, very windy
Oh, no, it's moving. Hey, Bernie, you mind helping me out? I've just got an imaginary narrative device
that will certainly explain something quite complicated. I can't get anyone else because of COVID
Oh, well, you just wouldn't believe how busy I am at the moment
Just hear me out. So what we're going to do is we're going to replicate Einstein's dead undead cat experiment
Einstein was originally going to use lots of explosives, but Schrodinger betrayed him to use a cat
If you want to try this at home, you'll need a radioactive source
that every so often emits a single alpha particle, a detector which will trigger some poisonous gas
which will kill a cat. Ah, that's great. Where are you going to get a cat from
I thought you could be the cat then. Oh, well, Marie, no thank you
but that's a fantastic offer. Okay, well... Bye, Marie. I guess I'll take the box
And the carrot away. Oh, did you just say carrot? Yeah, the carrot's in the box
Well, let me just... Finally, I'll just have a little poke in it. Oh, that is a nice carrot, to the least. Hey
Oh, me. Now, common sense tells me that Bunny will either be alive or dead
depending on whether an alpha particle is emitted or not, but quantum mechanics has other ideas
So, quick question, are you seeing a live or a dead right now
Well, I seem to have split into two. One for me is alive, and the other one is, you know..
That is exactly the quantum mechanical answer. In fact, Bunny is in a theta position of state
right up until the observer looks inside. At that moment, God rolls his or her dice
and Bunny's fate is sealed. Oh. There are other interpretations of quantum mechanics
One popular one is that God, instead of rolling dice, creates a whole new parallel universe
And let us now go to parallel me in a parallel universe. Hello, parallel me
How are we doing? Yeah. Um, you're not quite as good looking in your universe
as I am in mine, are you? No, I was thinking I'd help you out
See, that's weird. How's Bunny? Yes, Bunny is alive and happily munching on the carrot
How are you doing, Bunny? Yep, look, this is a very munchy fine carrot
And you're welcome to disagree with me if you like, but I happen to think that this version of quantum mechanics
is also quite interesting. And what's really interesting is, despite the fact
that the world of quantum mechanics is really mad, physicists for the last hundred years
have been really reticent to see a system beneath it that might give rise to all this craziness
And one reason could be that they believe there's no point, there's nothing you can see beneath quantum mechanics
Quantum mechanics is as small as you can get. It's like the picture of our virtual reality
What's the point in going beneath that? And of course, in this investigation
we do want to examinate. We want to find out what's making those pixels light up
What is it really? What's really going on? And in fact, one guy I know of
Professor Gerhard Tucht, who is a Nobel Prize winning physicist, father of the holographic principle
along with Tusken, is a big, big heavyweight in the physics community
He has bucked the trend, and he has said no to the no-go theorems
that prevent you from looking beneath quantum mechanics, and he is taking a delve right now
And I wonder if he is somehow looking at the very code of the universe
Wouldn't it be great if we could talk to him? Benny, do you want to come and meet the great man
Yes, but I'm stuck in the box. Okay, you can go. No, no, no, I'm not an angry bunny
As I make my way down to the office, I wonder what an idiot like me can say
to someone who is essentially the modern version of Einstein. Your hair's looking very good
It looks like you've been to the hairdresser. I've still got to go
Okay, hold it there, hold it there, hold it there. This is future me talking
and I've got an email through from Professor Gerhard Tucht. Let me bring it up
I said to him that I would send him a transcript of our interview
so he could check he was happy with it. Dear sir, the only positive result of this interview
is the confirmation of why I am so reluctant to do oral interviews
There is no single sentence in this account that is reproduced correctly
or is grammatically correct. Please delete this recording. Do this. Yeehaw! So I think it is a shock
I think it is a shock to have a nice hour-long chat
and then for it to be cut down to a couple of minutes
for anyone. So he's pulled out. However, I have to tell you
things that he said because they are really important for our quest
In order to explain quantum mechanics without relying on magic, Tucht has looked beneath the panel
and built up a model that he thinks might be there. And I think
what he's found is our first clue as to what lies beyond
our virtual reality headset. He's a cellular automaton
A cellular automaton is a simple kind of computer. Each cell blips and rattles
or stays the same according to a set of rules. And the rules only depend on the colours
of the cell next to it. According to Tucht, the idea behind it is that nature
is an intimating processing machine much like a laptop. Only this laptop
is as big as the universe. Tucht has given us a glimpse
of what might be beyond our VR headset. A kind of computer
And I think this is big. I'm talking about the next really big breakthrough
in humanity's understanding of the universe. And to make sure I'm not
barking up the wrong tree, I've made a load of bread which I'm going to give to Dr. Stuart Clark
It's central bread. I'm hoping Dr. Clark is going to give me
his thoughts on the seemingly ridiculous idea that the universe is a kind of giant computer
It's the most fundamental thing in the universe. Not matter. Not energy
There is no partials, photons, or any of that. It's the most fundamental thing in the universe. Information
And so, if it is, and if you start thinking of the universe as
almost like a computer doing a big calculation, and that somehow that couples
to our physical reality, then yeah, we perceive and accept and our brain
in some way creates. And that might be a really interesting note to this. Okay
I think we're on the right track. So now I'm going to look for a genius
who may be thinking about the universe like Tuft as some kind of cellular automaton
Turns out that back in the 18th century people were thinking the universe
as some kind of computer and people were really interested in the automaton
Oh, this is interesting. Stephen Wolfram. I think there's a kid who heard about Wolfram
on news rounds. Wolfram, a landowner, graduated from Oxford in 1917, received his doctorate
in physics at Caltech at 20. I mean, if ever you're looking for a genius
this guy is it. A cover of Nature, 1984. Look at all of that
This is obviously Wolfram got into cellular automaton. Wolfram discovered a particular
rule for a one-dimensional cellular automaton called Rule 30, which is about being super simple
which is staggering complexity. This idea of simple things creating complex patterns
reminds me of those fractals which were also big back in the 18th century
This is interesting. It makes the book a really hell of a science
It says in the book, Wolfram predicts a way of creating a universe
In Wolfram's story, the universe is a giant computer. This computer produces complexity
through the repeated execution of simple rules. Now, I actually think that
we should look at them a bit more because it makes things better out
than what the artist is doing right now. So, time for a demo
Me, you, and the pink one are going to try and explain how
a set of simple rules might build the universe. And please don't ask why my fingers are blue
So here we are, the beginnings of the universe. Stephen Wolfram has
typified this thing of an automaton with cells and replaced it with one of these. Stephen Wolfram
would call it a node. And that's why I inconsistently call it a squashed node
Nodes can be connections. I'm going to represent a connection with a log object
And from this moment on, all I'm going to talk about are the connections. So
we're now going to make a very simple rule and that simple rule is going to grow
the whole entire universe. Okay. Wherever you see a connection on its own
you can add two more connections. And let's carry on, shall we
This is Wolfram's simple rule, by the way. This is mine. Congratulations. A big triangle
Yes, I have made a triangle. And as we go further, it turns out one rule
is not enough because the connections start as a lattice, going left and doubling up. So my
second rule is whenever two connections double up on each other, you take them both away
leaving a little gap. Even with my super simple asymmetric rule, we start
to get interesting details into the pattern. Firstly, many gaps form near the edge. Most of them
get filled in, but importantly, not all. And the other is you see it's creating a grid
And what's it got to do with anything? Well, this massive lattice represents
space. A million applications of the rule, and my lollipop-stick lattice would cover the Earth
According to Wolfram, there are going to be trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions
and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions
of applications of rules every second. In one second, my lollipop-stick lattice
could be the universe. Of course, this simple lattice just grows through the space. The real
rule would have to grow through the space. Yeah, however, we've still got gaps in the lattice
What are they? Well, say, some little knot or twist or missing bit
from the lattice represents a parcel. And what's interesting is that every time you apply a rule
to one of these holes that we've got in this simple pattern
it moves the hole. It's like a particle that's moving. Of course, I've just got two
rules, and they're super simple. Add a couple more rules, and the lattice
might look like this. And iterate the rules a trillion or so times
and you may end up with this. I am wondering, one of these patterns
the virtual headset is translating into the world around us. But that is a big maybe
because even if it was right, it would be almost impossible to prove
For instance, the trillions and trillions and trillions of iterations it's going to make in its birth
would take a computer the size of our solar system years to complete
So how could we ever know if Wolfram had got it right? Well
there is another way. This is the amazing thing. According to Wolfram
the pattern that he created is displaying the exact equations of relativity
Even in my super simple astrophysical rules model of the universe, I think we can see how
particles, a gap for a crystal not in the lattice, are going to
warp the fabric of space. This warping of space mimics Einstein's theory of general relativity
Einstein said that large masses, like planets, also warp space. And if he's able to produce
a pattern which gives us relativity and quantum mechanics of particles, and is able to use the pattern
that he's created to predict more stuff, well then that's a new theory
That is the new theory of everything. He's done it. So could the simple pattern
created from what is essentially a piece of computer code, grow like some ginormous
spatial, and with a little bit of help from our virtual reality
headset, can transform into the universe we see around us. Back in 2002
Wolfram had found Einstein's equations of relativity in the pattern, but quantum
mechanics still eluded him. If he was right though, with only a matter of time
But then, reviews of his book came in. A rare blend of monster rays
and Ugamania, and utter bashed insanity. Wow. I mean that is unusual
It looks like he's birthed great gang, but we're still in their bloom
For 80 years, the idea lay dormant. But then, two young theoretical
physicists, persuaded Wolfram to get back on it. And I heard, in the last year
they've made a tremendous breakthrough. One little bit of a quest is searching for the code
the code that governs everything. And if you start getting quantum mechanics
and general relativity and other sorts of stuff out of it, then
you know you're probably pretty close. Now, is it possible that you found
this code? That's a, that's a witty question. Um, so as you correctly said
they're looking for the machine code of the universe. Of the ones we've searched
I would be extremely surprised if one of them actually turned out to be our universe
Ah, oh dear. I thought they found the answer. But then, one of them says something that is
potentially even better. Okay, one of the remarkable things about this formalism
is that a, is that so much, so many of its features are generic
Now, you know, you might think that things like relativity and quantum mechanics
you would, you know, they would be features that are peculiar to our particular universe
and, and none of the others. But that's not what seems to be the case. What seems to be the case
is that actually it's a very, very general property. Wow. So it's not that they haven't been able to find
that produces both general relativity and quantum mechanics. It's that many of the codes they're trying all
produce general relativity and quantum mechanics. The idea that you haven't found the actual code
is that key. And yet, in creating this pattern which I'm not going to attempt to understand, but there's
a super complicated pattern and if you look at it in a certain way, and we're allowed to look at it
in any way we like, because we know how the signals are coming into our head
we can do whatever we want with it. If you look at it in a certain way, the pattern tells us the story
of relativity or quantum mechanics seems to be progressing in the above
and beyond anything else, really. It's more often you see things floating
into places in the way that they have been. And this is the reason why we think
we do have something interesting there. It all sounds amazing. And late one
Friday night, Professor Stephen Wilson himself agreed to give me a status update
on his theory. I was kind of stuck on quantum mechanics. I'm very interested in it
actually. I've always not been very happy with the whole dead cat thing
I had a friend named Dick Feynman, always used to say nobody understands quantum mechanics
And he and I would talk about this for ages. I would say as the weeks
go by, I get closer to saying I really understand quantum mechanics
Here's a really remarkable thing. My favourite fact so far from our
whole development of physics. Physical space is one thing, but there's also this other kind of space
that we call gravitational space. And the story of quantum mechanics is the story of how things work in gravitational space
Gravitational space is a completely different way of describing the pattern. Remember my lattice and the actual
moving around. Well, it turns out where I apply the rule has an effect on where the particle
ends up. For instance, if I apply the rule here, the particle goes left
But, I could have applied it here, in which case the particle would go
right. We end up with two possible outcomes. And gravitational space is a depiction
of all these possibilities. An incredibly strict way of looking at the pattern describes quantum mechanics
So, in physical space, you know, a straight line is deformed by the presence of mass, that Einstein
equation. In branchial space, the exact same thing happens. Presence of, well, roughly the presence
of energy causes part in branchial space to be deflected. So, it's just a sort of a thing without gravity
in branchial space, that's the social real energy. And so what happens is, what is the Einstein
equation in physical space, and it's talking about gravity, becomes quantum mechanics in branchial space. For me
this is really amazing, because these have been two, you know, they're
the two pillars of pressure sensor physics. And they've been things that have been very separate
and what we're realizing in this model, in this theory, is that they're actually
the same thing. And so, when you see them sort of weave together
which you do in certain cases around black holes and so on, that weaving together, which
seems to be very difficult to do, because it seems like we've got these two completely different theories
now they're actually facets of the exact same theory. And so they weave
together really beautifully. Uniting quantum mechanics and general relativity like this has been something
string theory has been trying to do for 50 years. And surely
this is a fantastic sign, isn't it? I mean, the great changes in the past
suddenly loads of other things have slotted into place, things that people weren't even thinking about
And yes, that, oh, you know, you change the view of the universe
and suddenly, plop, plop, plop, and here you are. It's really cool. It just seems so promising
what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, I'm amazed too, because the fact
is, you know, I keep on saying to, you know, Jonathan, who you've also talked to
you know, we figure out something, and I keep on telling him, it's never this
easy. There are these moments when sort of some new idea comes
about, and there's a whole bunch of low-hanging fruit to pick. And now's that
moment. So, could this be it? Have we found the final answer
Well, something that got me really excited was the fact that Professor Cook
the chap with the extremely good reputation, is also looking at something
like energy, leading to quantum effects. Of course, it doesn't matter what I think, it's what
the establishment thinks that matters. You know, in terms of the physics community
about 18 years ago, I published this big book called A New Kind of Science, which was kind of about this
computational approach, and many communities were like, hey, this is really cool. The fundamental physics community
pretty much, even though, you know, I had been in their business, so to speak. It's not like I
knew these people. It's like there were, you know, it's kind of a parade of pitchforks
You know, this can't possibly be right. And it's like, please don't work on this. You know, if you're right
well, all the stuff we've done is wrong. 18 years ago, people still believed
string theory would give us all the answers. We're almost there. We're going to get this. We don't need anybody
telling us, you know, there's a new paradigm that's needed. But now it's clear
string theory isn't the answer. And I think it's about time the establishment started looking at
Wolfram's ideas. After all, his ever-growing passion can do away with the need for dark
energy, just like Einstein did away with the need for voltage. Singers, most physics theorists
claim that Wolfram's theory cannot make any testable predictions. But they are misinformed. Wolfram's
models numerically predict tiny particles, far smaller than anything found in the establishment's current theories
We've called them origons. Origons are very, very tiny things. And assuming they're way
out of reach... I'm not sure they're so out of reach. I think that there may be some
dark matter predictions from origons that are within reach. I think that the
effect of them in the early universe is almost certainly computable. The effect of them in
gravity wells in the existing universe may be computable. I don't know
If the physics community hunts for origons and finds them, then Wolfram's done it
And our universe will never do the same again. When I started
working on this, I thought we're building a different direction about how
physics might work. And all these things about string theory, they just have to be..
You know, if I'm right, they're wrong. Okay? But I don't think
that's the way it is. I think what's true is that they are mathematical structures
which actually show up as pieces of what we're doing. And what's really interesting, it seems
that the things that are predictable exactly align with the big achievements
of central country physics. The truth to the tale is that far from
replacing quantum mechanics and relativity, Wolfram's universe counters these theories in a bed of computation
So we haven't swept away the universe that we know. What we've done
is found that there's a lot more outside our virtual reality headset waiting to be discovered
Wow. So you might think I would have been a bit nervous about talking to
someone approximately three million times more intelligent than me. However, I do have
to talk to Mrs. Bishop most days. And I'm completely used to it now. If you'd like to support
my venture, please, there's a link to find me across the... or even
to you to be my patron. Patrons get access to the full
and mind-blowing Wolfram, Hoffman and Jonathan interviews. And of course patrons are able to
message me and ask me questions. I want to thank Ricky Stein for doing a fantastic
job on the music. Such a genius. Link below. And we also did the Nixon sound effects
Waltz of the Iron of the Ice. I want to thank Professor Wolfram and Jonathan
of course, and the guys and girls who helped set up the Zoom. I want to thank
Dr. Stuart Clarke, whose books, by the way, which I'll link to
were part of the inspiration to doing kind of like all the things that are kind of messed up
in the universe right now. Professor Donald Hoffman, who also has a great book out
The Consequent Reality, who brought this book to the Physics World Book of the Year
And with Christmas Penny, we're going to try and produce some funny mugs
Also, maybe you want to get your loved one a telescope, which is what we
consisted of five years ago, and we've been progressing ever since. My website has lots of useful
suggestions for revealing the universe to you without costing you earth. Thank you for
watching all the way through. Please subscribe. Keep a pop. Take care. Bye